RAD Studio XE2 – what we’re doing about supporting it and when

Me, I'm adopting FireMonkey fairly quickly so I can support users on the Mac, and an app on the iPad. If there was one thing I'd want to see, it would be a decent grid. Doesn't have to do all that the grid does now, but basic data display and sorting would probably be enough - showing tabular data in a nice way. Maybe that would be a way for you to dip your toes in the water and not have to go the whole way. If FireMonkey takes off, you can add a more detailed component.

We're intrigued by FireMonkey, but we don't have any customers clamoring for Mac support, so any work we may do in that direction is at least a year away. What really has our attention there is the iOS and promised Android support. It'd be really cool to leverage our existing Delphi code into mobile apps.

VCL styles don't interest us much because we're already committed to fully implementing DevEx skins in our next major release.

Will most likely upgrade since 64-bit support FINALLY is making its way into Delphi.

Will *have* to upgrade to XE2 as I'm on 2009 and a fully committed to DevEx controls in my app.

I am also still considering which subscription to purchase.

No real need for OS X/iOS support so FireMonkey isn't on my horizon. Plus I'd be interested to see how gracefully it degrades (& how well it performs) on PC's with on-board graphics adapters or even VM's and Remote Desktop access.

64-bit will be a requirement eventually but not yet an issue for my customer base.

LiveBindings intrigue me though.

Will certainly be updating to XE2.  Cross-platform support will be very useful and the ability to target iOS is a bonus.  

I'd be willing to pay an extra subscription to DevExpress for FireMonkey support.  I agree with Matthew in that some basic control set by DevExpress would be welcomed; for instance a simple grid and iPhone style controls such as switches (radio buttons).

Right now I'm using Delphi 2007, but 99% I will upgrade to XE2. Support for 64bit and compile application for iPad/iPhone are my biggest reason.

I'm agree with Julian about Devexpress to wait and see on supporting FireMonkey Framework. I would be more agree if you concentrate more in VCL.

But if you are going to support FireMonkey, I'm willing to pay the subscription for supporting FireMonkey if you going to offer some good control set on it.

I paid to continue my SA this week so I'll move to XE2. Love XE as it is, but really want 64 bit and almost more interested in LiveBindings. I'm hopeful about FireMonkey, but cautious. When Kylix came out I spent thousands on the environment and components only to take a huge bath as it was abandoned. I completely understand the DevExpress caution at this point, and I'm writing this on a MacBook Pro next to my wife's iMac and my iPhone and iPad are charging on the other side of the room. There are probably few people here more interested in whether it succeeds or not than I am... But Kylix wasn't that long ago and it's hard to forget when a company throws you under the proverbial bus and you lose significant investments in time and money in the process. As for whether I'd pay more, I'm not sure. Depends on what was being offered.

I will upgrade to XE2. Firemonkey will be of interest especially since I found the IPad really useful. I would love to see some gradual transition of the controls hopefully starting with the incredible QuantumGrud

I will happy to see there is a new product line for cross platform.

it can be a small subset of VCL product line, its enough.

and I hope VCL product line will support more touch screen user interface.

also, i think this time also good for better think about right to left support

Delphi in now have some advantage for cross platform over .net

My answer to the "would I pay" question is yes, depending on what you provide of course. If you want more money, you have to provide more components! 8-)  I think I'd be happy with the idea that you set off with the intention that if FireMonkey components get popular, then they'll be a new paid subscription. And then produce a starter grid that is the core that people can use, and you can learn from, as part of the VCL subscription so people can use it "free". Then you can decide where to go from there.

Me, I think this isn't going to be Kylix (and yes, I paid for Kylix 1!). That was a useful lesson for us all, and FireMonkey is a different situation. Hopefully, it will work out. Small steps at the start are fine.

Yes, I would pay extra for a Firemonkey grid/controls set in a separate pack. Can fully appreciate your reasons for caution though.

Yes, we will be moving to XE2 after a few months of not hearing any negative comments.  LiveBindings are exciting.  FireMonkey seems promising.  DevEx seems reluctant.

It sounds like that DevEx doesn't even look at the betas. Sigh.  

You have to realize that when you are out front (with a great grid, great data bindings, great skinning) they are going to catch up with you.  Your lack of commitment to LiveBindings and styles is concerning.  Bringing up your past experience with Kylix seems to show you don't know that the OS world is changing quickly.

I was there with DevEx  (as a DX Squad member) and Kylix and saw what happened.  To put it nicely, Borland was a jerk to the 3rd party market.  DevEx got the worst of it.  But this isn't Kylix, and Windows is not the only major player in the marketplace today.  I sure hope that burnt fingers from past experiences doesn't keep DevEx from being a leader in the upcoming Delphi show--there are others wanting to take your place.

If the purchasing decision maker in a company is a Mac advocate then the product that works on both Apple and PC platforms will win out. I will seriously consider FireMonkey controls if there is a decent grid, chart and pivot control and yes I will pay for them.

I think we all remember Kylix.

So FireMonkey is the new kid on the block, but will it survive?

I will upgrade to XE2 from Delphi 2010, but I still remember the money I waste with Delphi 2005 and 2006.

That's why I only update every two releases now.

I also understand the money DX spent with no return in Kylix.

So I also will pay for a DX FireMonkey Subscription if the component offer is good enough.

Cross-platform is more important for me than 64bit, so FireMonkey is something to consider but it will depend on how much work will it take to convert current VCL projects to the new library.

If its to much work I prefer ASP.NET as a cross-platform solution.

I'm still on RAD2007 and this is the first update I've seen that, for my needs, makes it worth upgrading. I've been testing Silverlight for a while and love the way I can separate code and UI - if LiveBindings give me something similar then I'll be delighted.

It's the cross-platform that has me sold though. I'd been keeping an eye on KSDev over the years and it was interesting to see the positive feedback it got from users. With the additional resource behind it I'm optimistic FireMonkey will be come to be my primary UI technology going forward.

Re DevEx components - I'd definitely pay extra for FireMonkey components. It's a sales model that works for WinForms vs Silverlight in .NET, so perhaps a native code bundle similar to DXperience would work?

Cheers, Bob

Still on Delphi 2007 because Unicode is potentially going to cause problems with few or no benefits for our biggest (English speaking) customers. But XE2 finally offers enough benefits that we can make a strong enough case to seriously consider it.

That being the case we'll be interested in taking full use of Unicode to do even more multi-lingual stuff which means we also really, really need Right to Left support in the VCL.

64 bit is essential obviously but everyone is on the same page here.

LiveBindings and Styles not a big deal for us simply because we leverage the existing DevEx solutions. Having said that I can see benefits in adhoc LiveBindings beyond what we already do so support would be nice.

Firemonkey has great potential I think. However we have big questions about how it behaves in Terminal Services, Citrix, VM situations. Currently it sounds like on Windows in a shared desktop situation you won't get any 3D which kills it for our existing applications. I hope that they will organise degrading to a software 3D renderer in these situations.

Like Ed is saying, following the market doesn't really seem to fit with the position of DevExpress to be a market leader.

Your customers are seeing the potential of FireMonkey giving their Delphi based products a modern GUI again. We won't wait until DevExpress thinks it is safe to invest in this area. This would be a shame as I expect that the experience in developing components for WPF/Silverlight could be extremely valuable in providing cutting edge FireMonkey components.

Regarding paying extra for firemonkey support. This seems to defeat the object of a full subscription to me. I know that it is named VCL but I read that as Delphi subscription.

Ken

Taking some time to see where FM is headed and how components might be designed so they can share a lot of code between VCL/FM implementations would be best I think (if it's possible anyway). That would give a chance of long term health for both VCL and FM components and possibly an easier transition path for developers.

Commit to some basic FM components and have previews available in the VCL subscription and also as a separate "FM Pack" product for those not using the current DevEx VCL components.

As a SA member I will certainly move to XE2. I think Embarcadero is not Borland, since RAD 2007 they made a good job with every new Delphi version. I also think that the situation Firemonkey is not comparable with Kylix. With Firemonkey you will get a wider platform audience than just the Kylix linux platform. The iOS and Android platforms are very attractive in this times.

Please consider supporting Firemonkey, even at a smaller degree at first. If no Thirdparty vendors support Firemonkey it will be self fulfilling that Firemonkey will be no success. And yes, I would pay extra for a line of Firemonkey component tools, since I understand that in most cases your developing has to start from scratch.

Hi,

if DevExpress should launch a small subset of the components for Firemonkey, I would be very interested to take an additional subscription to these components.

Controls of the VCL Subscription that should be included for me:

1. grid component. Not with all the features of the Vcl grid, for me just sorting, the basic features.

2. Porting certain edit controls, especially numeric edit control, no alternative available standard with Delphi and very important for financial applications.

3. Richedit control or something similar.

That's about it for starters. I think this is something DevExpress should consider.

I'm sure other vendors are already working on Firemonkey support, but I have always sticked with DevExpress because of component quality and support.

Bernaert Dominique

Does DevExpress have a speed comparison between 32 bit and 64 bit modes for the quantum grid?

I've heard that new 64 bit compiler generates faster code than visual studio c++ 64 bit.

Hello,

I think you should query *every* Vcl customer if they would pay for FireMonkey support or not. After the query you will know precisely if the development will be worth or not.

This would be a simple survey - it takes maximum of 15 minutes for a person in a software like SurveyMonkey.

We purchased our DevEx Delphi Subscription for the first time in June, having had various individual DevEx tools for years.

Starting in Q1 2012, I anticipate all our future apps, plus a few existing VCL ones, and eventually our current Silverlight apps, will be implemented in FireMonkey.  Some of my customers want iOS or Android apps alongside their main Win32 offering, so I'm thrilled I can now do it at Delphi development speed.

Ironically, the only thing holding us back is how hard it is to find replacements for our excellent DevEx tools.

The upshot is that we won't be renewing our DevEx Delphi subscription until DevEx rolls out FireMonkey controls.

Most important for us is grid, followed by printing system.  If you make it, we will buy it.  

I hope that DevEx doesn't cede the field to others, which is what DevEx's strategy amounts to. I know that the Kylix experience was brutal. But I believe that Borland/Codegear/EMB have learned something too.

How many developers are working on VCL components ?

Because i don't find some big news for VCL, only the end of some delphi support ?

XE2 is ready and DevExpress are Not, i don't understand ?

Next Step is to join TurboPower ? and stay only on Microsoft OS DotNet WPF and other ?

Thinking about it a bit more I can see having the FireMonkey controls as a separate subscription being a reasonable idea. If so it would be good if there was still a global Delphi subscription which included both VCL and FireMonkey with a discount over buying them separately.

Of course the FireMonkey subscription price would need to reflect the value of what you were offering. Initially I would expect the price to be reasonably low because I'm assuming you would be starting with a small number of slightly less powerful controls relative to the VCL.

I wanted to agree with Ed Dressel and Peter Sprenger.  Embarcadero is not Borland.  Every release since Embarcadero purchased CodeGear has been a significant improvement.  Granted, the development team had a new focus on quality before the purchase.  But I strongly believe that Embarcadero has backed this commitment in ways that Borland never did.

Kylix was a neat idea but the execution failed in so many ways.  Qt was not a good choice for many, many reasons.  In my opinion, the biggest reason is that Borland did not have control over Qt.  Of course, they don't have control over the Win32 API either.  But then again, the Win32 API has been in pretty good hands.

Several people I know, myself included, are thrilled that Qt was not used as the cross-platform framework in XE2.  From talking to the Delphi team, I know sticking with Qt was part of the "Project X" plan.  Instead, Embarcadero took the route of purchasing a Delphi native framework that was already well received so they could have full control over the cross-platform framework.  I seriously doubt Borland would have ever made that decision.

Cross platform was also originally slated for XE.  Lots of people complained about broken or false promises.  Could it be that Embarcadero is so concerned about doing it right that they would rather delay it for another year then put out a sloppy release just to generate revenue?

I wonder what Kylix would have been like if Borland had done the same thing?

If Firemonkey is good in developing database apps iOS and Android I will change, and maybe Delphi will have new users, so any devexpress component will be interesting.

I'll be giving it a pass until they support 64-bit C++ apps. Unfortunately, we use the C++ personality, and my understanding is the XE2 does not yet support 64-bit development in that language. [sigh]

I'm a die-hard VCL customer (as named in this article). I wonder if are there enough VCL developers? or are we an endangered species? I surprise when i look into the DevExpress Products, and there are a lot of them for .NET and only one for VCL, then i wonder if i'd think to move to .NET or resist win VCL????

I agree with a number of others above that DevEx needs to get into FireMonkey or potentially lose a number of its clients. The grid is obviously the key element. I suspect most other VCL customers are already somewhat miffed at your current focus, and if they move to FM quickly (which on initial appearances might well happen) you may well loose them, along with whatever other developers are attracted to the platform.

I will move to XE2 for 64 bit support only, as long as tests will show it is reliable enough. Right now I have no interest in FireMonkey, first because it would require a total rewrite of the GUI, moreover I use many specialized controls beyond DevEx that would need to be found elsewhere or rewritten from scratch. I would prefer FireMonkey controls to be a separate library subscription from the VCL one.

About LiveBindings and other features there is still a lot to know, and performance and reliability have still to be tested. Delphi quality improvement, but they also have a long record of new functionalities implemented with lots of bugs and unpolished. It happened with the IDE, generics and Datasnap when Delphi was Embarcadero already, I will wait and test before switching to them extensively.

I would really like to see FireMonkey from DevExpress.  If we can move our applications to supporting Mac as well, it is another market for us.  DevExpress has been one of the leaders in the Delphi Component market.  It would cost us a lot of effort to switch to another grid.

I believe DX should definitely have support for FireMonkey (as a separate product), and I would definitely be willing to pay to get it.

We heard 64 bit, cross platform, firemonkey, new datasnap and lot of new features will be in XE2.

If EMB adds Android and Linux support into these features, it will be great.

EMB and/or DexEx should give useful ways to convert existing VCL codes to new FM codes to developers.

We are going 2010  ->  XE2  Good changes for us and looking forward to DevExpress on XE2.

Like many on here I can see us moving to FireMonkey fairly soon with new applications and we would like to see some DevEx components on there as well (and be willing to pay extra for them).  I agree with many that FireMonkey is not CLX, Embarcadero is not Borland and that the world has moved on - the Apple eco-system is now huge and FireMonkey is going to be the way to enter that market for any Delphi developers.

I just came across this press release which is very encouraging to me.  I hope it is encouraging to third-party component vendors as well.

www.embarcadero.com/.../embarcadero%E2%80%99s-delphi-reaps-three-consecutive-years-of-double-digit-growth-since-acquisition-from-borland

"Delphi sales have steadily grown by 15 percent year-over-year since 2008, when Embarcadero acquired Delphi"

With the new 64-bit and cross-platform support, I can't imagine this trend will stop with XE2.  I'm expecting XE2 sales to be better than any other version since 2008.

Julian, you said "To my mind, RAD Studio XE2 will be the version of RAD Studio to upgrade to", and you mention cross-platform development as one of the reasons.  Yet DevExpress hasn't decided whether to support XE2's cross-platform development?

If DevExpress develops FireMonkey components, I think they should be in a separate subscription.  Perhaps have a third subscription option that includes both VCL and FireMonkey, if there is customer demand for such an option.

Currently I'm using Delphi 2007 and I definately will upgrade to XE2. Support for 64bit is important, were as compiling applications for iOS,iPad/iPhone have a much lower priority.

However: upgrading has to wait till all third-party components I use support XE2 too. Let's hope DevExpress will be one of the first to accomplish this.

As I understand FireMonkey requires a whole new set of NON-VCL. What would be perfect is when there would be some way to translate old Delphi VCL code into FireMonkey code. This would also be a big plus with regard to paying for FireMonkey support and new components. Build some converter if possible. I also agree to make this a separate subscription.

Have subscribed today to full VCL subscription, i hope you let me uise firemonkey devexpress controls before my sunscriptions end. FM is a completely differnt concept than CLX. It lives before XE2, and work before XE2! So, i think only can have a brillant future on ANDROID, MACS and LINUX. Theres no stone on the road dthis time, and Julian, i have to put clear: my renew on the next septmeber will be true ONLY if FM is included on the VCL subscription plan. Ditto.

We're on move from 2009 and XE to the next generation XE2&FM - with x64, an improved datasnap etc. and we would be very very sad to do this without the devx grid (and others of your great VCL products).

Apps and datasnap will be some of our focuse points.

Kylix, what kylix, forgot all about - life continues, if we were to back off every time something fails, where would we be.

So Julian keep up spirit and get going supporting us making great x-applications for our customers. You are the greatest :)

Yes, I will pay.

I must say how disappointed I am to see no commitment to support the new Delphi Firemonkey.  I have been a Delphi developer starting with Delphi 4 in 1999ish.  I've been employeed by 5 different Delphi shops that all used your VCL components.  I too have bought personal copy your VCL products for freelancing Delphi work.  I am developing a commercial software that has to work everyone, so needless to say, I have been waiting a long time for this "Delphi Everywhere" now branded Firemonkey to finally get here.  How disappointed when the very first site I go to "www.devexpress.com" to see the Firemonkey grids, etc. to just find "No support for Firemonkey".  You have been supporting Delphi all this time, and now when they are coming out with the most significant release (in my opinion and many others) you choose to not support it.  Unbelievable!  I hope you change your minds.

:) Not at all.  As well I hope you take all this feedback from the community as a good thing, cause it shows how much we love Delphi, LOVE what Firemonkey will provide us and LOOOOOOOOVVVVVVEEEEEE Devexpress.  The idea of having to move away from Devexpress,,,uughh!  Here is another comment I just read from stackoverflow......."The key to FireMonkey's success will be adoption/commitment by third party component builders IMO, ie., DevExpress, TMS, etc. FireMonkey provides an environment that can produce native crossplatform apps and this is BIG. Hopefully, some of these component builders will commit (come on DevExpress say something positive...) some significant resources to this end. I'm excited at the potential of this framework but I'm not going to be able to produce anything meaningful until I have my favorite third party controls on my pallet."    

See we want Firemonkey Devexpress components, and ready to hear from ya'll say "Absolutely we are going to commit to developing Firemonkey controls"!!!  :)  All in love my friend, all in love!   LOL

I think you should sontrongly consider to support FireMonkey. DevExpress has so many users, that many of developers will make their decision to use or not FireMonkey based on the support of 3rd party components. The idea of FireMonkey is very good. Only thing we need now are enought 3rd party compnoents. Come on!

Was at the Cape Town launch of XE2 today, and I am most definitely adopting firemonkey asap.

I agree with Liana on this.  

I went to the Chicago launch and the most exciting thing to me was the number of people sitting there with Macs and iPads; also worth noting is those people were the youngest, by far, in the group.  It just seems to makes sense that DevEx would want to move their controls to Firemonkey (FMX) because the market for Macs and Mobile devices is rapidly expanding and Windows itself seems fairly stagnant; younger programmers and new development is going to be less and less Windows-only, so long term doesn’t it make sense to go where the money is?  I pre-ordered XE2 as soon as I got home.

The Kylix thing was DOA – it was a bad idea to try to develop an IDE that ran on Linux and using Qt was never going to work; I took one look at it and never considered it.  Targeting the GPU directly with Firemonkey seems to make a lot of sense and some of the 3D demos (which, by the way were being presented on a Mac) were stunning.  Then they ran those same programs in a Windows VM on that same Mac and the performance was still incredible – I took one look and realized that whatever Embarcadero has done this time is truly remarkable and it looks like they really got it right.

I am not a Delphi bigot.  I’ve used Java, C++, Visual Basic, whatever tool makes sense at the time to get the job done.  The simple fact is that Microsoft has abandoned the native executable market with .Net and the *only* game left in town is Delphi/C++ Builder.  64-bit support is nice and long overdue but with Firemonkey there is *finally* a tool that allows native cross-platform development; nothing else comes close to delivering what is available today.

Yes, I understand that the cross-platform compilation is not entirely there yet.  Moving stuff to Xcode then compiling there, etc. but the reality is that I saw it working and it works today.  Essentially they’re shipping a beta version of the Mac support so now is the time for DevEx to start working on their support.  

Without question I would pay more for a Firemonkey subscription; it’s a different platform so I would think it would be sold separately just like .Net or Silverlight or whatever; the people that think it should be free I think are being unreasonable considering how much work DevEx would have to do to add that support.  That said  you don’t need to rewrite all of your code – 90% of that Delphi code should be exactly the same between VCL and FMX versions and I would think you would have most of the Windows-specific code isolated anyway since you did (at least partially) go down the Kylix path already.  The Grid control, obviously, is the most important thing and I would buy it today if you had it.  DevEx has a real opportunity here to be a standard bearer and I think make a lot of money in the process - here’s hoping that you take all of these comments to heart and start developing as soon as possible.

Hi, I just visited an Embarcadero Roadshow event in Duesseldorf today. Three things:

1. XE2 is a good one (I own it since a month)

2. Delphi has in Germany and rest of the world growing market shares

3. Firemonkey needs support from third party companies because there are several white spaces (reporting, richtext,...and a lot more)

Please support both(!) VCL and in future Firemonkey

I can understand your caution, but Firemonkey looks a very key feature in Delphi now. Being able to compile or the Mac as well as Windows would make it much easier to sell into some of my markets - several have alreadu asked. I would certainly pay extra / different subscription to be able to use Dev Exp controls with FireMonkey. I'll go that way soon but would rather do it with Dev Express controls.

I have been on a VCL Full Subscription for years now.  I would pay a separate Firemonkey FULL subscription in addition to the VCL without hesitation.  

i hope that dev exp seriously take forward step for supporting Firemonkey and Right to Left language

Please support VCL  and Firemonkey soon