What's in a Name

10 April 2008

In the coming days, we are going to be announcing a name change for DXperience Professional. We will be renaming the product to DXperience WinForms Edition. The reason is rather simple...the name Professional does not quite address the platform the controls in the subscription target. Also, Steve Smith, an MS RD once said to me "hey Ray, don't you think ASP.NET developers are pros as well?" Of course we do...

So, this is a head's up for those who read our blogs...an email message will be sent to all existing DXperience Pro customers explaining the name change. Our website will then be updated to reflect the new name - DXperience WinForms Edition

 

27 comment(s)
Nate Laff

That makes sense. If I was still a pro customer I'd appreciate the more descriptive title. But I'm universal now. yay!

10 April, 2008
Neal

I'd like to hear how WPF is going to flow into the subscriptions.  When I read this article I can see the writing on the wall.

10 April, 2008
Alex Danvy

If I understand what the Universal subcription means (it might include components that bring my app to Mars) I'm sure that this name change will be welcome. But that's only a good start. Enterprise sounds as bad as Professional to me. After all, I'm a professional developer working in an enterprise...

11 April, 2008
Robert Fuchs

Ray, this is just another way to tell people that WPF won't be part of the Professional - sorry: Winforms subscription ;-)

11 April, 2008
Andreas Grabmüller

Yes, that was my first thought too. I don't really like that tendency - I think we can wait for them to announce a WPF Edition and a Silverlight Edition...

I don't really remember how the editions were announced when DXperience was created. For me it was "All .NET without source = Professional; Professional plus sources plus productivity and some other things = Enterprise". Of course, I'm pretty sure I do remember the Enterprise Edition has been announced as "Everything .NET". Now we have Ultimate Edition...

11 April, 2008
Linton

I think you're right, robert. We'll likely see DXperience for WPF...I jumped on the Universal train for XAF and I'm crossing-my-fingers, hoping they'll include WPF in Universal.

11 April, 2008
Mark Finley

I bought your tools sometime ago because of the inclusiveness.  You included all the controls regardless of the platform.  Active X, Windows, Web.  Now, like Microsoft and the MSDN kit, you are changing the rules.  It appears the marketers in your company are winning over the developers.  It is a concern because I want tools from a company where the developers lead and the marketers follow.  Less greed means better working tools.  Now I am going to have to search for another company because its apparent you are getting too big.

Another thought what about web tools are you planning to spin them off as well so that we would have to buy three products instead of the one?

11 April, 2008
Neal

I bought into the highest level, Enterprise Edition because it was the all inclusive.  Then comes the Universal but I didn't care as I don't care for XAF, most DXEnt probably don't as we need by component "control" and granular application design.  But now it just appears as something else is looming as WPF and SL come into play.  If even WPF and SL come under Universal, it's wrong, DXent was supposed to be the everything, then comes XAF and a new subscription.  Guess we'll just sit back and watch and see how this plays out, but any true business man trying to make a buck is going to create some new subscription model for the new stuff coming along and then come up with some message to their paying community as to why it changed from what the "contract" was that they signed up under.

11 April, 2008
Neal

So back to the title "Thinking out Loud" and "What's in a Name" I think you can see what WE think is in a name! :)  Amazing the response to what was started as a simple name change to a subscription?  At least you're hearing the fear of your paying community as our lack of confidence in the handling of the subscription "contracts."

11 April, 2008
Ray Navasarkian (DevExpress)

Dear Lord - you conspiracy theorists ought to stop it...I know that JFK was not killed by a lone gunman, and I know the CIA brainwashed Sirhan Sirhan, but there is no conspiracy here with this name change - right wing or otherwise.

I'll maybe ask Steve to post a message here - he's the one who recommended the name change to us at our Influencers Summit in Nov :-)

Finally, those of you who are somehow hoping that we will be giving you a free copy of our WPF controls when they are released if you own DXperience Professional...Im sorry to say, that was never in our plans.

11 April, 2008
CESAR F. QüEB

I'm agree with NC, My first subscription edition was Enterprise, because ALL .NET components WERE INCLUDED... this WAS the REASON because I purchased this edition. Before of this.. the Universal subscription arrived....Next... on 4th April.. my Enterprise subscription expired....although DevExpress grant a Free year for XAF to Enterprise subscriptors.... my subscription was renewed... now to Universal... THINNKING that all .NET components must be included here.... I hope that YES... WPF, SilverLight...must to be included in this release.... and... I have a question more...

Like an Universal subscriptor...DevExpress goes to grant a year more to my XAF product?... (for the free year granted like an Enterprise subscriptor)?... My decission to upgrade to Universal was because the product has many pendent issues to fix...(I'm waiting a releases that fixes many issues for CR and RF too).., obviosly... for the fixes i have purchased the subscription.

Regards

11 April, 2008
CESAR F. QüEB

I wrote: "Before of this.. the Universal subscription arrived"

I want to write: "After of this.. the Universal subscription arrived"

Thank you!

11 April, 2008
Mark Finley

May I remind DevExpress that its us old timers who renew every year that gives you the R&D dollars to produce an XAF product?  I renewed on time in October, I don't believe I was offered a free year of XAF but then again, I thought it would be included in the (at the time) overall subscription.  So maybe the intention was never to include XAF, however it does appear to break the unwritten and presumed 'contract'.  This has nothing to do with conspiracy but with understandings.  You know like a handshake.  You promise to produce good tools that work most of the time, fix the bugs and we pay you annually for the right to attempt to break them and tell you about it.

11 April, 2008
Ray Navasarkian (DevExpress)

And we do all of that Mark - and have done all of that. We try to treat people fairly each and every day and to run this business in an equitable way...both for you and for us.

The user who bought a product from us in 1998 can still send us support inquiries and we will still respond.

If you renewed DXperience Enterprise in Oct, then you would have received XAF for a 12 month period once it was released in Dec.

Sorry Mark, there was no way we could afford to give you XAF for free for a lifetime. I wish I could, but then we have bills to pay.

You may feel this decision was made by some greedy pinhead...but that would mean you have no idea how we try to run this business.

I know you are bitter about XAF and I sense you think we are really out to screw you - but that's the furthest thing from the truth.

The conspiracy theory comment related to DXperience Pro - I have no idea how the heck XAF got mixed up in this blog post.

And finally Mark, if it's time for you to find a different vendor, I understand. Far be it from me to tell anyone with whom to do business. You've got bills to pay...you've got deadlines to meet. Your goal should be to always find the very best product out there that meets your exact business needs. If we are not that company, then we failed. If we did fail in this case, you should rest assured that it had nothing to do with a marketing dept run amuck...

11 April, 2008
Linton

My guess is that Enterprise will stay as-is and Universal will add WPF and Silverlight controls. My feeling is that Uni needs more than the addition of XAF to spur Ent -> Uni upgrades (For me, WPF and Silverlight adds that value for sure)

11 April, 2008
Neal

Ben,

That is NOT what I want to hear!  Is the fact of the matter here that DXp Enterprise was all inclusive?  In other words all .NET products from this point forward until we land on Mars?  So why would WPF and SL fall under Universal and not Enterprise?  I let Universal go and I don't want to pay extra annually for a higher level subscription due to XAF, I could care less about XAF and I'll reserve any further comments on that product.  Let's get back to the contract we were offered, signed by credit card, and what will we receive in the future?  Universal to me is everything .NET "and" XAF.  Now let's remove XAF from the equation and we're back to Enterprise, so where will the WPF and SL birdie land?  I have a feeling I know the answer.  Back to the ole business line, we gotta make our money blah blah blah - then you should have thought of that when you designed your subscription model.  If you state you're going to include everything .NET then do so.  Now all I want today, is simply the quality of DXp to improve.  8.1.1 comes out and soon thereafter 8.1.2 which breaks the DatePicker, DockManager, and what else I have yet to determine.  

TGIF - see you all at the bar! :)  For those of you that bought the DXEnterprise subscription - sorry, the keg is for Universal subscribers only! LOL

11 April, 2008
Ray Navasarkian (DevExpress)

Amazing - just amazing.

Guys, if you dont know what is going to happen, what is the use in making statements about a reality you know nothing about?

I realize it's fun to pontificate and Neal, I know you are proficient at it, but for pete's sake...No one is talking about the Enterprise sku....

11 April, 2008
richard morris

Neal,

Are you aware that the subscription getting the name change is the one that contains _ONLY_ the Windows Forms components, and it's name change will be FROM "DXperience Pro" to "DXperience for Winforms"?  This product doesn't include any ASP.NET products, CodeRush or Refactor!, XAF, XPO or the ActiveX controls or any source code.  I suspect you saw DXpPro and read DXpEnt and conflated that with an lurking suspicion that DX doesn't charge you nearly enough for what they offer you.

p.s. I left DX 2 years and 13 days ago, these days I'm just a customer.  I do however feel entitled to stand up for their practices, especially when I know from experience they bend over backwards to ensure fairness to all customers, often at the cost of business.

12 April, 2008
Neal

It always amazes me how Ray & Co. _ALWAYS_ go on the defensive and think everyone is out to get them, bash them, whatever.  I also am always humored by the response to someone saying "I guess I need to look elsewhere" - the response is typically read as "don't let the door hit you in the...".

Richard - No defense or standing up is necessary.  I do have a Masters degree, part of that is the ability to read.  So yes, I am well aware of the product being changed but I am also well aware and very concerned about, as are _MANY_ others as to how WPF and SL are going to flow into the existing subscription models.  We have already been mislead once, aka the birth of DXp Universal, or whatever it's called, we bought into the top level subscription, why did something else supercede it?

So instead of the "amazing..." responses, or whatever the less than professional responses may be, how about instead handling this as a mature business leader and instead tell us already how WPF and SL are going to flow into subscriptions?  Is that really necessary to be a secret?  If so, we are concerned, if not, then just settle everyone's nerves and answer the concern raised by your customers.  It won't - the typically arrogant handling of many things here, ignore thy customer!  Aka only chime in on the community forums when a DEFENSE is needed.

I'm a thrilled DX customer, I am not going anywhere, like it or not.  I like the components, will continue to push DX to become better and better what we/I get in the end.  I don't roll over to anyone, no one should, state what your concerns are and let the vendor answer them, maturely.

So, the question of this blog is "what's in a name change" - change does not go over well with paying customers - that's what's in a name change.  Question answered, let's move on!

12 April, 2008
Linton

"Guys, if you dont know what is going to happen, what is the use in making statements about a reality you know nothing about?"

Ray, we're only "Thinking Out Loud", I think it's a good thing

and, I agree, fun too ;-)

12 April, 2008
Ray Navasarkian (DevExpress)

Neal,

The topic of this post is a name change to DXperience Pro - It is being renamed to DXperience WinForms Edition.

And of course name changes don't go well with customers...that's why I first blogged about it and stopped the email blast that was about to go out...to at least set the stage first.

Im glad that you are a thrilled customer and you know more than anyone the value of our subscriptions. Could they be better, of course...do we have to add more stuff to them, sure we do...

My responses are as professional as I can make them. When someone says we are "greedy" then I respond in the most professional way I can. You see, for you, that might just be a passing comment made in the heat of the moment...but it means something different to me.  When someone says I'm taking my marbles and going somewhere else, then my professional response is that you ought to - you ought to go do business with someone with whom you are comfortable. If you think a business (in this case DevExpress) is only out to screw  you, then why bother...what is the point of doing business with someone if you feel that way?

Neal, these are emotional objections that can never be refuted with logic - logic can never professionally address the notion that we are greedy and being overrun by marketing types. It's really no different than the charting conversation in which you participated.

This is something you said in this thread - "Guess we'll just sit back and watch and see how this plays out, but any true business man trying to make a buck is going to create some new subscription model for the new stuff coming along and then come up with some message to their paying community as to why it changed from what the "contract" was that they signed up under."

Now Neal...I don't know what a true business man is. I guess I dont really want to know. I guess my personal ethics preclude me from running a business in that way - whether it's dealing with people who work on behalf of DevExpress or the customers who rely on us. You see, a true business man would never do some of the things we do. A recent example might illustrate this...One of our very first customers writes to us and tells us that he really needs a feature for his vertical app. We know that implementing the feature adds no long term value to the product and the man hours we allocate will take man hours from things we know we have to do...Since we are not true business men, we decide that we ought to implement the feature. We ask for no money from him - we do it because he has been a loyal customer.

No one here at DevExpress has implied explicitly or implicitly that WPF or SL controls will be excluded from DXperience Enterprise. I am not in a position to comment on what will happen down the road - My crystal ball is not that polished but I will say this...DXperience Enterprise is our top product SKU for those wanting to build Windows/Web solutions. DXperience Universal will continue to be the SKU of choice for those desiring the same and requiring an app framework. Both of these SKUs will continue to offer CodeRush/Refactor.

12 April, 2008
Ray Navasarkian (DevExpress)

Linton - I understand the motives behind speculation. It's fun to speculate and fortunes are often made (or lost) based on such speculation.

It's just that your speculation is dead wrong. :-)

I'm not trying to spur upgrades from one SKU to another. Our goal is to grow our market share, not squeeze revenues from existing customers.

12 April, 2008
Neal

Ray,

My hat's off to you, that is the best reply I have ever seen from you!  It was down to earth, no attitude, that is what I like to hear!  And as always, it's very hard to interpret text especially from people we don't know - nor should we judge.

We all feel a part of the DX team and community and quite frankly we want to see DX remain the best, so we (I) are passionate about seeing this outstanding team, component suite, etc. grow for all of our good and the good of the developer kind.

I realize that you didn't post this blog for a suggested name for DXpPro, but I guess we needed an avenue to vent in reaction to this name change.  For example, and I hope you appreciate the feedback, I would have envisioned a better name as follows:

You recently stated, and not many know, that "DXperience" is supposed to sound like "The Experience."  Well, in that light, I can see the best fit for DXpPro would be "The Experience for Windows" therefore DXpWin would be Winforms and WPF - not sure if ActiveX is included in subscriptions, don't use that any more.

DXpEnt would be "The Experience for Windows and Web" so it would logically take the name of DXpWinWeb.  And then you have your XAF, which I would just assume not have another subscription level but simply DXpWinWeb+XAF.

I just wanted to share my customer point of view on the naming conventions, I realize again that you didn't come here for suggested names but I certainly can do no harm to throw out my suggestion before that e-mail blast.

P.S.  I noticed the DXCharts blog article pulled.  Not sure why, just curious.  Now I could go onto naming there too :)  WxCharts? :)  WPF Charts.  Now you know why my dog is named "dog" :)

Have a great weekend all...back to some quiet coding while the customers are sleeping!!!!

12 April, 2008
dennis

This was a long thread and I must say I came to it late and I did not read all the points in detail, however, I would just like to state that the name change implies that this subscription is WinForms,  and that it will be separate from any WPF or SL products.

This is a little worrysome for me because I already have people asking me why should we pay the subscription, rather that just using what we have.  Knowing that there are new products that will be target desktop applications that are not part of our subscription causes us to be concerned for WinForm evolutions.

I already feel that sometimes WinForms is not seeing an increase in functionality at the rate of some of your other products.  This is probably normal, it is after all mature product.  Having said this, evolutions are what we are paying the subscription for.

Like all WinForms developers, we are currently wondering what the future is between WPF and WinForms.  We have a significant investment in DevX products so fundamental changes like this mean a signifcant risk on our part.

I think it would be nice if DevX could be more open in sharing information on the future of their licensing structure.  Floating a name change like this just makes everyone nervous.

I would rather not migrate from WinForms to WPF, but if I do, I would like the proces to be as painless as possible.

12 April, 2008
Ray Navasarkian (DevExpress)

Dennis

You ought not worry about WinForms evolution. It is by far and I mean by far, the platform of choice for most developers these days. Yes, WPF is the future (at least for now) but that does not mean everyone is flipping the switch tonight.

For us, we're as committed to WinForms as we've always been. If you feel we're not paying attention to WinForms, then we've done a totally lousy job explaining what it is we have been doing...here is a breakdown

========

v2008 vol 1

========

New Skins

www.devexpress.com/.../index.xml

Changes to XtraCharts

www.devexpress.com/.../index.xml

Changes to XtraGrid/XtraEditors

www.devexpress.com/.../index.xml

Changes to XtraReports

www.devexpress.com/.../index.xml

Changes to XtraPrinting System

www.devexpress.com/.../index.xml

Changes to XtraPivotGrid

www.devexpress.com/.../index.xml

Changes to XtraVerticalGrid

www.devexpress.com/.../index.xml

Changes to XtraScheduler

www.devexpress.com/.../index.xml

========

v2007 vol 3

========

Changes to XtraGrid

www.devexpress.com/.../index.xml

Changes to XtraCharts

www.devexpress.com/.../index.xml

Changes to XtraBars

www.devexpress.com/.../index.xml

Changes to XtraReports

www.devexpress.com/.../index.xml

Changes to XtraEditors

www.devexpress.com/.../index.xml

Changes to the XtraPivotGrid

www.devexpress.com/.../index.xml

Changes to the XtraScheduler

www.devexpress.com/.../index.xml

There are of course other changes and this is just in the last six months...to say we are not paying attention to WinForms is a bit unfair...all of our developers who are working so very hard on WinForms would certainly disagree :-)

The name change is just that - a name change. The cost of DXperience Professional (soon to be renamed to DXperience WinForms) is $799.99. We think its priced fairly and we do our best to offer as much value as we possibly can with each release. If someone had the notion that we'd produce WPF versions of all of our WinForms controls and charge the same - $799.99 - well, I'm sorry - no possible way we could stay in business if that's the model we followed.

12 April, 2008
Christoph Brändle

Ray,

I think any programmer not paying an extra $799 for the WPF versions of all devExpress WinForms controls does not respect the work you guys are doing. I just imagine (dream) .. Scheduler, Pivot, Grid, Editors, all WPF, so cool, I'd pay much more if you had them, if you bring them all 2008, I'd pay easily $3999. Time is much more important than price, because if they are released 2012, I dont pay anymore that much. The only time the price has to be less is when other competitors have the same offer too... you never get a mercedes for the price of a ford, and devExpress is a mercedes

change name, change everything, as long your products are the best, you can do it (to a certain extend), what is not so good, is to tell the people you will never do it, because most company do it (need or want) if the really can provide the best product.

cheers & thanks for your good products

13 April, 2008
Mark Gould

As a professional subscriber I don't mind the name change as its the components that matter at the end of the day. That said, I do use the Asp.net version of XtraReports which is currently included in the professional edition so I hope that isn't going to change :)

14 April, 2008

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